Ender's Game vs. Ender's Shadow

[Ender]

So, these books are like my favorite books in the whole world, as well as all the books following. The interesting thing is, with this book, people usually either love it a lot, or can't even finish it. There's no middle ground. I was wondering what everyone thought of Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, as well as the books following. What you liked or disliked and why. Just something fun to talk about.

[Inkling]

Not two months ago I was given Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead in a Sci-Fi book bundle as a thank you for a task undertaken for a friend, however, a lack of quality reading time of late (Uni studies *sigh*) as seen both books sit accusingly unread in my bookshelf.

So, worth bumping up to the top of my reading list?

Your screen name would never have served as a hint for your enthusiasm for the book series. ;p

[Ender]

Not two months ago I was given Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead in a Sci-Fi book bundle as a thank you for a task undertaken for a friend, however, a lack of quality reading time of late (Uni studies *sigh*) as seen both books sit accusingly unread in my bookshelf.

So, worth bumping up to the top of my reading list?

Your screen name would never have served as a hint for your enthusiasm for the book series. ;p

Yes, I really enjoyed Ender's Game. Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind were a little harder to read, but I had to finish them anyway. Ender's Shadow and all of the Shadow Books (Shadow of the Hegemon, Shadow Puppets, Shadow of the Giant) were all very exciting though. Good Reads. If you haven't read Ender's Game yet, I'd bump that one up a bit.

[thisislissa]

Yes, I really enjoyed Ender's Game. Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind were a little harder to read, but I had to finish them anyway.

Funny, I found that the series got more compulsive as it went on, I have distinct memories of staying up late reading Xenocide when I should have been working on some project.

**SPOILER ALERT**
I loved EG because it has one of the best twist endings I’ve ever seen. The blurring/eradication of the line between real and imaginary warfare is fascinating (incidentally it is happening in real life too, the US army has started using video game style controls for real world military drones). Imagine what would happen to you if your GTA4 crimes were real!

Why did you like the books so much, Ender?

[Ender]

Why did you like the books so much, Ender?

*SPOILER ALERT*

Sorry, but I can't discuss why I love that book so much without giving some stuff away. I can't remember the first time I read it, it was either back in High School or Junior High, but as soon as I started it, I loved it. I was too young to really appreciate Speaker for the Dead or Xenocide, so I wasn't able to finish them the first time I started them. However, years later, I found it again, and decided to see if I'd still enjoy it. I finished the book that same day, and realized that I've never really been able to read a book more than once. So, I decided that Ender's Game would be the measure all future books would follow. A truly enjoyable book is one you can read more than once and still enjoy. There are many books that I would recommend that are good for only one-time reads, but a select few are really great and can be read more than once. Ender's Game is one of those books. I enjoyed that you were inside Ender's head throughout the whole book. Almost like you were his monitor, only better, because you could read his thoughts as well. To the outside world, he was always mistaken for something else. Small and pathetic at first, to legendary and untouchable toward the end. But really, he was just stand-offish and reserved. The things he did might have seemed monstrous to others, but he wasn't a monster. Far from it in fact. Valentine and Graff understood that about Ender, when Ender didn't even know that about himself. The ending was a great twist as well, like you said. It's something no one would expect, one of the greatest twists I've ever seen. Sometimes I just wonder what he would have been like if he had gone back to Earth. How would he have figured into Achillies schemes and who else would have risen to the occasion if Ender had been thrown into the mix? Would the IF become more personally involved? And how would this have affected Peter's persona? Valentines? Well, it's fun to think about, while I'm whittling away the hours at work.


Lol, and I realize I've gone off on a tangent about that book. I get lost when I'm talking about it at times. Anywho, I hope that answers your question.

[thisislissa]

To the outside world, he was always mistaken for something else. Small and pathetic at first, to legendary and untouchable toward the end. But really, he was just stand-offish and reserved. The things he did might have seemed monstrous to others, but he wasn't a monster. Far from it in fact. Valentine and Graff understood that about Ender, when Ender didn't even know that about himself.

Once again **SPOILER ALERT**

Its interesting that the hero who could be humanity's savior has to not know himself. Sort of the inverse of the standard “hero’s journey” people are always talking about. Ender would never have knowingly destroyed the bugger home-world, but it’s destruction may have been necessary since it proved to the buggers that humans were sentient and thus ensured peace (though Ender is very lucky that the queen survived). This idea that government forces can engineer/manipulate brilliant people to carry out their wishes runs through these books from Ender himself to the godspoken of Path. I wonder if this is possible in the real world, for authorities to trick people like this, so that they become innocent monsters. Could certain scientists in Nazi Germany be an example? Or is there always an element of choice? Are we still responsible for our actions even if we have been brainwashed/manipulated. It’s hard to tell what card thinks. On the one hand we are encouraged to feel sympathy for Ender, I remember thinking he was being too hard on himself. On the other hand he has quite a pattern of “unintentional” ruthlessness throughout the book. What do you think?

[Ender]

To the outside world, he was always mistaken for something else. Small and pathetic at first, to legendary and untouchable toward the end. But really, he was just stand-offish and reserved. The things he did might have seemed monstrous to others, but he wasn't a monster. Far from it in fact. Valentine and Graff understood that about Ender, when Ender didn't even know that about himself.

Once again **SPOILER ALERT**

Its interesting that the hero who could be humanity's savior has to not know himself. Sort of the inverse of the standard “hero’s journey” people are always talking about. Ender would never have knowingly destroyed the bugger home-world, but it’s destruction may have been necessary since it proved to the buggers that humans were sentient and thus ensured peace (though Ender is very lucky that the queen survived). This idea that government forces can engineer/manipulate brilliant people to carry out their wishes runs through these books from Ender himself to the godspoken of Path. I wonder if this is possible in the real world, for authorities to trick people like this, so that they become innocent monsters. Could certain scientists in Nazi Germany be an example? Or is there always an element of choice? Are we still responsible for our actions even if we have been brainwashed/manipulated. It’s hard to tell what card thinks. On the one hand we are encouraged to feel sympathy for Ender, I remember thinking he was being too hard on himself. On the other hand he has quite a pattern of “unintentional” ruthlessness throughout the book. What do you think?

That is a good question. This idea of the Government's ability to manipulate people however they want is a tricky subject. First of all, for anyone who works for the Federal Government that may be reading this, I am not an ANARCHIST. lol. I believe the government has it's place in the world, as do i. I do not believe the Government tells us everything it should, and I think if we had a world totally controlled by the government, we would have the equivalent of chaos. It's hard to explain, so I'm trying to use terms from a game I've been reading up on, Warhammer. If anarchists are Chaos, and the government is Order, then the battle is always being fought between these two forces. But I believe that battle can never end. If one side were to triumph over the other, the balance would be lost, and humanity as we know it would eventually disappear. A Perfect World of Order is not something humans can handle (admit it, we all like a little chaos now and then the book "The Giver" is a good example) and vise versa, if Chaos were to triumph, we still couldn't handle it. We need a healthy dose of both, and that is what we have now. This is true for all Governments. The Nazi's had a good PR campaign to stir up trouble and encourage people to fight. PR is just another example of manipulation. Think of the Salem Witch Trials; people were manipulated into believing that these supposed Witches and Warlocks deserved to die. Or your example of the Godspoken of Path. The IF's manipulation of Ender is a perfect example of Order using the tools at its disposal to fight Chaos. In my opinion, since Ender had no idea that he was actually fighting a real war, none of the blame should fall on his head. However, precautions might have to be taken. Just because a gun doesn't know that it's being aimed at innocents doesn't change the fact that innocents are dying. I said before that he didn't know himself, he thought he was a monster, and the fact that he was tricked into being a monster reinforced that belief in himself, so he spent the next 3000 years trying to prove to himself that he was a Creator, not a Destroyer. Not everyone is as easily manipulated as Ender. A persons' upbringing has a lot to do with how easily they are manipulated, and what buttons must be pushed in order to control someone. Graff watched Ender's Family and Ender himself for years, so he knew how to control him. So, the question becomes "Since he wasn't aware of his actions and was manipulated into destroying an entire species, should he be punished or locked up to ensure that no one else can aim the gun that is Ender at someone else?"

On a side note, i don't believe Ender was displaying Ruthlessness. He fought to win, and he definately won. Someone is his position has to consider what is going to happen the next time and the time after that, and if he can do something about it now, he should. He cried after his first fight on Earth with Stilson. He wasn't being ruthless, he was being thorough.

[thisislissa]

I agree completely about order and chaos. I think that this dichotomy everywhere, conservatism vs. liberalism, or in biology specialization vs. diversity. On a side note I think us liberals would do well to remember that conservatives are there to keep us grounded, without them we would quickly destroy society, just as without us society would become mired in the dark ages.

It seems like you believe that with careful planning free will can be eradicated in an individual, at least for a time. You say that the government has turned Ender into a loaded gun (though of course he frees himself in the end). I find this idea very troubling. Of coarse people can be controlled with drugs and threats and conditioning, but what Ender’s government does to him is more than this, they get him to use all his abilities to do their bidding. He works hard at goals which are not his. I hope that this type of control exists only in the mind of Card.

The story of Han Qing-jao has an interesting point about how free will works as well. Here an explicit program for government manipulation of people is in place, yet when Han Qing-jao is freed from her compulsions, she chooses to continue her wood grain ritual in hopes that ‘the gods’ will return. I believe she is the only one of the godspoken to make this choice. What does that say? Has she been so damaged by her mental imprisonment that she remains in her cell even when the door is opened, or does she have a saintly kind of faith, is there a difference? She uses her fee will to choose a sort of slavery. I suppose that this is what all religious people do, we submit to a god who does not speak to us.

[Ender]

I think that saying that Free Will can be eradicated in an individual might be a little strong. Ender knew what he wanted, he wanted to keep Valentine alive. And by destroying the Buggers, he ensured that. His will was his own, but his actions weren't. I think it is possible for the Government or anyone for that matter to be able to do that. The IF had been monitoring Ender almost since birth. And at a very young age, they took him from his home and put him in a completely controlled environment, where he didn't do anything but what they let him. This is a perfect example of conditioning, but it can only work if the subject in question is willing to comply. Ender's love for his sister made him willing to comply.

Han Qing-Jao was an interesting case. Growing up, all around her was conditioning toward the gods. Her whole life was devoted to the gods. And all of a sudden, her whole world is turned upside down, the gods no longer exist, and her whole life has been a lie. It's not hard to imagine how horrible that must feel, and it's understandable that she would not want to give it up. Also, the conspiracy theory was planted into her head along with the rest of her religion. "Anyone who does anything that drives people away from the gods is a liar, and through faith and discipline, you will achieve Omniscience." or some such goop. If someone wants to believe it enough, I can understand how Han Qing-Jao would devote the rest of her life to showing the gods her faith and devotion, no matter the obstacle. Incidentally, this is the case in many religions, including Christianity. I'll admit that I believe in God, and do my best to follow the teachings of the Bible. But I remember going to church as a boy and hearing the pastor teach us about faith. I don't remember word for word, but I think it went something like "Blessed are those who believe without seeing." Basically, anyone can believe something that they've seen, but it takes someone truly touched by God or someone of great discipline and faith to be able to follow the word of God without any actual proof or anything factual that can support their belief. I understand this, but it's hard to follow that particular teaching while maintaining my belief in God. I guess I'm tracing my own wood lines as well, and at the same time wondering why I'm tracing wood lines. I'm an open-minded Christian though, i'm willing to look at different aspects while maintaining my belief. What happened with Han Qing-Jao was the product of her conditioning, her discipline, and her faith. A rare case, and it's hard to mix all three of those in a single person.


That example you gave is a good one though. Imagine an animal bred in captivity and never knowing anything other than a cage or cell. When that door is opened, more often than not, you have to try and chase the animal away, and even than sometimes they'lll come back. That comfortable zone they've grown accustomed to is gone, and it's scary. The same can be said for people.

[thisislissa]

I think you are referring to the story of Thomas who asked to touch the resurrected Jesus’ wounds, Jesus let him but said “blessed are those who believe without seeing” or something like that (I would also call myself an open-minded Christian). Thinking about it again, I realize that there is a key difference between us open-minded Christians and Han Qing-jao. To follow her faith she gives up everything in life except faith. Since neither you nor I are writing this from inside a monastery I think our faith is less extreme. Of coarse there are many protestant thinkers who say that monastic life is an evil perversion which Jesus never intended, are they right? Does the world need saints like Mother Theresa and Han Qin-jao, or would we get along fine with ordinary people of faith who follow their religion but also live their lives?

Back to Ender, I see what you mean about him still having some free will, but I still find it disturbing how utterly he was manipulated. There are many stories with this theme: I’m thinking of a Korean movie I just saw Old Boy, but the Matrix also has that same idea, that a person can think they have free will, think that they are following their own interests, but really they are acting as someone else’s pawn. This is a frightening idea, but I think it may only be an idea. While it may be possible to manipulate and subvert someone, it would be so labor intensive that it’s hard to imagine it being worthwhile in real life. All that work they put in on Ender, only someone who was destined to save humanity would be worth that kind of effort. Then again the less intelligent someone is, presumably, the easier they are to control. I would imagine that terrorist organizations use some of these techniques on their recruits who come to them already pre-conditioned by poverty, war, and opression. It would probably be easy to push such a damaged person over the edge into doing something truly terrible.

Another idea I found fascinating in the books was the descolda, what do you think it represented?

[Ender]

I feel awkward saying it, but really all of these religions are just competing with one another. It's a popularity contest. Most religions talk about spreading the good word and converting non-believers. I think that everyone follows their own path, what they feel comfortable with, what they were conditioned with, and just like everything else, the balance is maintained. I think we'll always have open-minded Christians like you and me, and we'll always have extreme believers like Han Qing-Jao. We'll have religious fanatics that think that our being open-minded means we're going to Hell, and we'll have Protestants that believe Monastery's are an abomination. As for myself, I think I need to learn a bit more about my religion and what I believe compared to other people of that religion before I can spread the good word. If I don't know what I'm talking about, how can I explain it to others?

On the topic of Ender, I think you're right. It would be too labor-intensive to condition someone that thoroughly, to be able to control so fully, for the benefits it would reap. However, what if you were able to mass produce that affect? What if you were able to do the same thing to a wide variety of people, and control an entire army? It might not be as potent, as all-controlling, but a similar effect could be achieved. Hitler with his army and the success they achieved before their downfall, The Crusades, even the American Civil War. I'm not a historian, and I'm not saying that everyone in Hitler's army was controlled, that the South was manipulated into attacking the North, or anything like that. But all of these people had a similar cause they believed in, and the belief that they had to kill for that cause. Where Ender's control was complete, PR Campaigns are very much incomplete. They don't control everything, they can only nudge and push people a little bit here and there, but it's possible. What's even more frightening, however, is that in Ender's Game, we had an army that was ready to do whatever their commander said, no matter what it was. They were willing to follow orders without question, allowing Ender to pave the way for victory. So, this army was conditioned to obediance, and all the IF had to do was condition this one child to become the Commander their army needed. Granted, the right child had to be chosen, he had to meet certain qualifications (a willingness to be manipulated, and the willingness to be thorough against his enemies, and the ability to do that), but once that child was found, they took over from there.

The Descolada Virus, in my opinion, was an intelligent being's wish to become a God. They control planets and shape them to what they need. Really, it could be translated to man-kind. We've always dreamed of Transcendence, wished we could become more than what we are now. Wipe whole species because in our opinion, they're not needed, they just get in the way. I don't think we're anywhere near where we need to be to be able to create such a virus, but i think it's a goal of our's. Also, I think if we were ever able to wield something like the Descolada Virus, we wouldn't be fit to. It's like a child armed with a rocket launcher. There is a reason we're not able to do that, and I don't think we should ever be able to. However, Nature is more than capable. Things like AIDS and the West Nile Virus are miniature versions of a natural Descolada. It's what the world needs to get back on track, sometimes. Hopefully, however, man-kind won't be eliminated when that virus comes. Or if it's another Ice Age or something like that, hopefully we can weather it.

[thisislissa]

My favorite quote about spreading the good word by Saint Francis of Assisi: “Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words”. I agree with you that everyone follows their own path, and that the actions of one person is unlikely to effect the religious balance in the world. On the other hand, if one was instrumental in bringing an atheist to faith that would be a great miracle indeed. Don’t get the wrong idea though, I don’t really talk much about my religion with non-believers either. I’m not so sure that you are right about needing to learn more before being able to adequately defend Christianity. The more you learn about it the more you see that it is all very complex and open to interpretation. I think that faith is inherently irrational, I can’t really explain why I believe even to myself (except by using a really dorky math metaphor which I probably shouldn’t get into).

Great point about the real life army Ender commanded. I didn’t even think about them. They might have been easier to train though because weren’t they sent out right after the buggers had nearly destroyed earth, for them it was all still very fresh and they were probably happy to get revenge, no matter how harsh.

“An intelligent being's wish to become a God”, how biblical: “When you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”. Are we still chewing on that same fruit every time we step into the lab? I fear that some day we will make something like the Descolda. This is the tragic thing about science. As a scientist even if I know that it would be better for humanity if we didn’t get a certain piece of knowledge, I can’t help but to look for it. I can try to work on innocuous projects, but if I were to discover something that might become dangerous, I couldn’t pretend I hadn’t or try to suppress the knowledge. I think that trying to understand the universe is one of humanities purposes, however sometimes this understanding is dangerous. It would be nice if we all had the wisdom not to misuse our knowledge, but we don’t. As the years go by the discoveries by people who were just looking for understanding will be put to terrible uses. When one uses scientific discoveries as instruments to control nature, to be like god, is that evil? What if you are controlling nature by curing a disease? Would we be better off back in Eden, eating what the earth provides and not worrying about how it all works?

[Ender]

My favorite quote about spreading the good word by Saint Francis of Assisi: “Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words”.

I really like that quote, I'm going to have to remember that one. I guess I may have worded it wrong. I'm not waiting to understand more about the religion, I guess I'm trying to understand my faith in that religion. I've had religious discussions with people before, both religious and unaffiliated. In my experience (all 22 years of it, not exactly much to draw on ), people from various religions are generally trying to sell something to me. They're trying to sway my opinion and turn me to whatever cause they believe. When I talk to people who are not religious, it is usually more of a philosphical debate, with both sides being impartial, and generally more playing Devil's Advocate than anything. I noticed that I tend to enjoy talking about religious matters with Atheists because I get a chance to share my religion in an unbiased manner, or with an open mind. I'm willing to listen to what they have to say, learn from their experiences, and if they are willing to listen to what I have to say, learn from my experiences, that's great. They don't necessarily have to believe what I'm saying or agree with me and join my religion, but just the fact that they understand makes me feel better about all of it. A little bit of understanding goes a long way, and if everyone were understanding of each other, we would have the world as God intended it, before any apples were eaten.

And on that subject, I think that if no one had ever eaten an apple, our world would be perfect. They say ignorance is bliss, we were better off not knowing the difference between good and evil. We would all be happy and understanding and forgiving and everything would be perfect. It's hard to imagine something like that now-a-days, even harder to imagine our place in all of it. When that apple was eaten, we became like God, but we weren't equipped for it, and have suffered ever since, suffered from our own inability to handle what we've taken on.

I do understand your feelings about science though. Just because someone tells you not to do something, or because you know that something bad will come of it, doesn't stop you from doing that something or learning more or understanding more. Eventually, I believe it will lead to our downfall. But hopefully, by then, we'll be smart enough to have been prepared for that downfall.

I noticed that you seem to enjoy the Ender side of these books, and haven't really talked much about Bean's side. Ender's Game is very deep and brings up several interesting topics, but Bean's side does as well. For example, what do you think about Anton's Key? That we live shorter lives the smarter we are. That back when we lived long healthy 1000 year lives, we were horribly stupid (compared to today).

[thisislissa]

I understand what you mean about religious people trying to sell something. I’ve had that experience too a few times. It seems like they are always trying to hide the contradictions which are inherent in every religion. Personally I think the best part about religion is the mystery, the fact that you can look at it forever and never really understand it no matter how hard you try. But I have faith that the trying brings us closer to god.

I understand the theological theories about the apple (though I always like to think of it as something more exotic, maybe a mango or a pomegranate . . .). Maybe I’m a bad person, but when I try to imagine life in Eden it seems like it would have been like the life of an animal. Animals can’t do wrong, because they don’t know about wrong, but this hardly makes their ability to do right laudable. Who knows, maybe if we had stayed in Eden science would have flourished and we would be traveling to alpha-centari by now. Then again, if life in Eden was so perfect why would we want to? My reading of this story is influenced by the book Ishmael (can’t remember the author) which claims that the story of Eden is really about our transition from being animals to being humans and the birth of agriculture. Still, we were made in god’s image before we ate the fruit, so we must have already ceased to be animals (my Eden has evolution in it). That was way more muddled than usual, sorry about that.

I see it more like we are accruing a sort of credit card debit for humanity. We make these scientific advances which put us in peril (the internal combustion engine), but then we make more advances which keep the peril at bay (fuel efficiency/electric vehicles/solar power etc.). But we know that we are doing things today that will have an unknown impact in the future. We rack up debit faster than we can pay it off, and we have no idea what our credit limit is. One day it will be time to pay up, who can guess when that will be and what paying up will look like.

I admit I’m biased towards Ender’s side. I just don’t remember Bean’s side as well, and I think I’ve only read the first two. Since you described it I do remember Anton’s key. I can’t make out how the key can be anything but a plot device that makes Bean more tragic. There is no evidence that we ever lived 1000 year lives, and I looked it up, Einstein lived to like 76, well above the life expectancy when he died in the fifties. All evidence suggests our life expectancy has grown longer, and I’m not sure if there is any evidence that we have grown significantly more intelligent in the past couple thousand years (I certainly wouldn’t want to debate against Socrates!). I suppose we are much more intelligent than our evolutionary ancestors, but they don’t live especially long lives as far as I know. In a vastly unfair world, differences in intelligence may be the most unfair thing of all. It seems like people who are smarter than those around them can rise to the top of any situation, no matter how dismal their starting point is (just look at Bean). Bean would seem too superhuman if he didn’t have this tragic extra fast ticking clock, he wouldn’t be relatable. We want the people who are better than us to have feet of clay; people are always telling me the story of how Einstein couldn’t open the refrigerator door and had to get his wife to do it (there was sort of a latch thingy in those days), I’m not even sure if this story is true, but I’m just as happy to repeat it. Do you have a theory?

[Ender]

The whole religious salesmen pitch generally turns me off when it comes to religion, to be honest. But I don't hold it against that particular religion, generally just against the salesmen. There are always contradictions, and I would rather talk to a person who is willing to admit that they don't know everything about it, and that they just have faith, instead of someone claiming to have all the answers. But that's just me.

I really like that theory about our transition from animals to people. It seems to make a weird sort of sense, in my mind at least. If we had never eaten an apple or mango or pomegranate (never really cared for pomegranate's myself), what would we be like? Would we be just like the animals of the earth, doing what we have to in order to survive, and living in blissful ignorance? And what would living like an animal back then be like? My knowledge isn't as strong in this area as I'd like, but I don't believe there was any sort of carnivore's back then, and if there were, they still ate fruit's and vegetables. No foxes chasing the rabbits or lions chasing the antelope. What would our place have been in that scenario? And how does natural selection fit in to all of this? If the world were an Eden, and everyone flourished, would we still be running out of space, like we are today? and how would we fix that? It's an interesting subject, in my opinion.

As far as your credit/debit goes, doesn't that sound an awful lot like America?

Bean's side of the story was very enjoyable to me. I've read all the books to the very end several times. But I don't think this key was just a part of the plot. While there's no evidence to suggest it, I think our life spans may be getting shorter as time goes on. Again, I'm not an expert, but wasn't there something in the Bible about living for a couple hundred years at least? I really am going to have to finish that book one of these days. And Eistein was extremely intelligent, but he paid the price for that intelligence by lacking in other areas, such as common sense and reasoning. That's autism isn't it? Or Aspergers? What would it be called if we were very intelligent in all areas, and had to pay for it by knocking a few extra years off of our life expectancy? There's always that balance, having to give something up in order to get something. And I guess that's a good thing. What would happen to the world if we had a bunch of Bean's running around that lived to be 300? It would definately be a different world, that's for sure. But again, all of this is just theory on my part, I really don't know what happened or what the actual case is, I'm just going off what things i've heard and pieces i've managed to fit together (or so i think).