Has the God deceived us?

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 04 Mar 2021, 07:28

dianaterrado wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 00:53
Sushan wrote: ↑02 Mar 2021, 00:24 The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim trousers to look old by fading its colour and ripping it.

God created a theoretical timeline of all of existence, starting from the Big Bang and spanning billions of years. In this theoretical timeline, stars were born and died, dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and different human-like creatures came and went. Then, at a very specific point in this timeline, God took a snapshot of the entire universe, exactly as it would look at that moment, and that’s what He created. In other words, God brought a world billions of years old into existence fewer than 6,000 years ago.
Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
The author presented an intriguing idea and I think I'm going to have to disagree. It's definitely a new approach to the understanding of science and religion and God, but on this front, I'll just have to agree to disagree with the author

Indeed it is an intriguing idea. Yet if you agree with that, you have to believe that God has deceived us. But what happens when you disagree with this? The author has tried to fit the story of creation into the time line which is given by the scientists and archaeologists for the beginning of the universe and the earth, and life. If what this author has told is unacceptable, do you suggest that The Creation is also unacceptable (or acceptable as just a story?

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 04 Mar 2021, 07:35

Unique Ego wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 02:14
Sushan wrote: ↑02 Mar 2021, 00:24 The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim trousers to look old by fading its colour and ripping it.

God created a theoretical timeline of all of existence, starting from the Big Bang and spanning billions of years. In this theoretical timeline, stars were born and died, dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and different human-like creatures came and went. Then, at a very specific point in this timeline, God took a snapshot of the entire universe, exactly as it would look at that moment, and that’s what He created. In other words, God brought a world billions of years old into existence fewer than 6,000 years ago.
Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
The author's thoughts on this are unique to say the least as I've never heard this viewpoint before. It's certainly interesting to mull over. While I can see why he says that, I don't know if I agree completely. However, this is more due to a lack of evidence than anything else.

At the moment, I don't think either the Bible or science is wrong; I just think their missing a vital point of overlap that will make them both make sense. Besides, scriptures mentioned somewhere in the book of Job how God "destroyed the world." This isn't really news because we all know Noah's story. But then when we consider how some scholars believe Job may have existed before Noah, does that mean the destruction of the earth being referenced in Job happened before the great flood in Noah's time? Could it have been this first destruction that explains the dissapearance of dinosaurs and other prehistoric elements? It's all just speculation at this point, but it's definitely something to look into.

Did God deceive us? I seriously doubt that; I just think we haven't done enough research.

That Job's story comparing with disappearance of the dinasaures is similar to what this author has explained as God's day is equal to a millennium of years. Both these speculations try to make the biblical stories legit and give them some backing from the scientific theories. What is not yet proven are always referred to as undiscovered areas by science.

Why it is always at the expense of science and scientists? Science may not know everything. But why we always try to consider all the biblical teachings are true? It was written by humans and can't it contain false facts?

And in this scenario, if we actually accept this author's concept, then there is a good level of validity for his statement of 'God deceiving us'.

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 04 Mar 2021, 07:43

Michaeljerry309 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 02:53
Sushan wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 01:00
Michaeljerry309 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2021, 16:55 Firstly I don’t think that God somehow deceived anyone secondly why would God make the earth then make it look older than it is? If you think he did it for no reason then he could have created us too for no reason. So yes the earth is as old as science says it is. Let us try to remember that this book isn’t the absolute truth as the absolute truth is unknown, this book is just yet another speculation of what the absolute truth is meaning that the author could be right or wrong.
I agree. This is only a speculation and the author can be either correct or wrong. But what we have to keep in mind is that he has not merely speculated things, he has backed his logic with scholarly articles.

On the other hand, 'no one knows the absolute truth' is a pretty commonly abused statement when it comes to this sort of religious or spiritual questions, since no one can accept them or reject them. So, with all due respect, the creation could have been an outright lie from the very beginning. Maybe it is not God who deceived us, but the ancient story tellers who made up the story
Exactly!!
Most of the things we know about God are things we have been told so the information isn’t first hand and could have had things added or withheld and the Bible speaks in parables and metaphors who’s to really say what’s literal and what’s not. Moreover the same can; to a degree, be said about science these experiments done are carried out in closed doors and the results could be exaggerated or watered down and so we aren’t even sure that science or the ancient story tellers are 100% accurate. I studied philosophy in the university and one thing I learned is that every philosophy without scientific proof is still speculation, just a hypothesis, just another “in theory” because there are always other philosophers with their own point of views. Just think about it, I could write my own book disagreeing with most things the author has said in his book, that’s my opinion, my philosophy and others would read it and agree with me while some would still agree with the author. Who then is correct? Who’s philosophy is more accurate then? That is the beauty of philosophy.

I agree. We can't 100% trust either the bible or science.

And for the mentioning about philosophers, they were the masters of knowledge in the era where scientific method was not given much or any value. There were few famous philosophers, and they had followers who believed in them. There method was to make a point and back it with various logics. Other philosophers who disagree with that one argued against. The idea of the winning party was accepted afterwards.

The setup and presentation of this book is more or less similar to that scenario, and it highlights the need of the content of this book to be properly evaluated. Then only we can correctly say whether God has deceived us or not, or on the first place whether there is a God or not

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 04 Mar 2021, 07:48

Reviewer100 wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 04:45 God did not deceive us. We may need to find out the true import of the statement that a day is like a thousand of years before him. Secondly, we must acknowledge that the earth has been before every scientist ever emerged.

It isn't easy to find out the date that predates you and still be accurate. The Bible did not tell us the age of the earth, but surely, it was before any man.

It is true that bible does not tell the age of earth. But it has mentioned God's creation of universe, earth, and life in a six day time period. This concept of 'day' is the matter of discussion here.

Let's say that the God has not deceived us and His 'day' is far lengthy than a millennium of years. Then we are left at the issue of equally dividing the time from beginning of the universe to emerging of life (humans) into equal six parts (All these days should have a same time, otherwise it should have been mentioned somewhere in the bible). But we know that things did not happen in that way. Then how can we explain the story of creation?

Eriny Youssef · Post by **Eriny Youssef** » 04 Mar 2021, 10:51

I'm open to the idea. I wouldn't use the word deceived, though. It's a different perspective, that's all. We are the ones who convinced ourselves with those preconceptions. Also in another book by Daniel Friedmann, he explains this in more detail. He clarifies that the words "and He saw it was good" in Genesis meant that things are ready to use. "Good" here means functioning, he says. And not good as in nice or plausible. So maybe God didn't deceive us after all. Maybe we misunderstood the text.

Fozia RYK · Post by **Fozia RYK** » 04 Mar 2021, 12:23

No one knows the essential fact of the matter' is a beautiful regularly mishandled articulation with regards to such a strict or otherworldly inquiries, since nobody can acknowledge them or reject them. Thus, with all due regard, the creation might have been a by and large lie from the earliest starting point. Possibly it isn't God who bamboozled us, yet the antiquated narrators who made up the story.

friedmanndaniel · Post by **friedmanndaniel** » 04 Mar 2021, 17:53

Thank you for your thoughts. Some clarifications.
1. In no way has God deceived us. He left us a book, the Bible, which says what He did.
2. Science is also correct in making their measurements. But none of the measurements are direct measurements of the age of things. They are a measurements of how long something would take to happen if it did so naturally. and that is correct. For example, they measure how long a element (radioactive decay) would take to appear in a fossil sample- a correct measurement
3. If we then assume that everything happened naturally one can convert scientific measurements to an age. But that's an assumption. The Bible says things did not happen naturally, they just appear to us that way. It says things were made in their final state. Adam as a 20 year old- not a fetus and so on.
4. The Demin example is meant to show that something can appear old- meaning that as scientists the only way we can estimate how old jeans are is by measuring how faded and worn they are. Yet a creator can make them that way right from the beginning, So despite our precise and correct measurement of how faded they are, they are still new! And the creator tells they are new (i.e., in the jean store- no deception).
5 Why would God go though all this trouble of making things in final form that look to us as being older? So we can can have free will. If everything was obviously created we would have doubts, and no free will!

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 04 Mar 2021, 19:36

Eriny Youssef wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 10:51 I'm open to the idea. I wouldn't use the word deceived, though. It's a different perspective, that's all. We are the ones who convinced ourselves with those preconceptions. Also in another book by Daniel Friedmann, he explains this in more detail. He clarifies that the words "and He saw it was good" in Genesis meant that things are ready to use. "Good" here means functioning, he says. And not good as in nice or plausible. So maybe God didn't deceive us after all. Maybe we misunderstood the text.

I think we all can agree that God did not meant by 'good' that they are beautiful or fancy. The word 'functioning' is a better one. But here the same author has said that a God's day is just a millennium of years, and all this creation occurred in 6000 years. Yet our science says otherwise. So either God should have deceived us or all the scientists should have gone wrong in the experiments and researches regarding beginning of the universe

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 04 Mar 2021, 19:40

Fozia RYK wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 12:23 No one knows the essential fact of the matter' is a beautiful regularly mishandled articulation with regards to such a strict or otherworldly inquiries, since nobody can acknowledge them or reject them. Thus, with all due regard, the creation might have been a by and large lie from the earliest starting point. Possibly it isn't God who bamboozled us, yet the antiquated narrators who made up the story.

I think the same. I have not mentioned it since we are discussing a concept in this BOTM. First of all, I do not believe in God or the Creation. I believe that it is an outright lie by the earlier scholars, who wanted to either create a story or give an explanation regarding our beginnings. Anyway, they have deceived us. So, whether there is a God or not, seemingly He has nothing to do with us getting deceived. It is humans who have deceived humans, and some have chosen to carry on and rely on them as a belief system.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 05 Mar 2021, 15:57

Despite all his research, the author is not the authority on absolute truth. We are humans, we are flawed, and we make mistakes. God is not a deceiver. He has not deceived us. Numbers 23:19 states,
"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" The same view is expressed in several other Scripture passages as well. I guess it depends on if you believe in God or not, as to whether you think He is a deceiver or not. If you know Him, you know He is not a deceiver.

Ari Martinez · Post by **Ari Martinez** » 05 Mar 2021, 22:38

Sushan wrote: ↑02 Mar 2021, 00:24 The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim trousers to look old by fading its colour and ripping it.

God created a theoretical timeline of all of existence, starting from the Big Bang and spanning billions of years. In this theoretical timeline, stars were born and died, dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and different human-like creatures came and went. Then, at a very specific point in this timeline, God took a snapshot of the entire universe, exactly as it would look at that moment, and that’s what He created. In other words, God brought a world billions of years old into existence fewer than 6,000 years ago.
Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?

I pointed this out in another response in this Book of the Month Forum, but I'll point it out again: When the Bible says "that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8), the word "as" is used to mean "like." Peter is not telling us that to God one day IS a thousand years, but that one day is LIKE a thousand years. Peter's expression is not meant to give us a specific way of determining how God measures time, it is more of a figure of speech to let us know that God's actions might seem slow to humans, but fast to Him. Therefore, we can't say that God deceived us when we don't even know how to measure God's time.

Either way, knowing how long it took God to create the Earth has not effect on our Salvation, so why are Christians so interested in knowing? Why does it matter? Is it as a way to confirm He is real because we doubt Him? If God has no beginning and no end, and He knows what will happen before it happens, does the concept of time even apply to Him?

Trustedbook · Post by **Trustedbook** » 06 Mar 2021, 00:32

God has not deceived us, rather has placed us on the level of our comprehension. There are some mystery that cannot be explained, there are also some that can be explained by scientist through their research.

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 06 Mar 2021, 03:26

friedmanndaniel wrote: ↑04 Mar 2021, 17:53 Thank you for your thoughts. Some clarifications.
1. In no way has God deceived us. He left us a book, the Bible, which says what He did.
2. Science is also correct in making their measurements. But none of the measurements are direct measurements of the age of things. They are a measurements of how long something would take to happen if it did so naturally. and that is correct. For example, they measure how long a element (radioactive decay) would take to appear in a fossil sample- a correct measurement
3. If we then assume that everything happened naturally one can convert scientific measurements to an age. But that's an assumption. The Bible says things did not happen naturally, they just appear to us that way. It says things were made in their final state. Adam as a 20 year old- not a fetus and so on.
4. The Demin example is meant to show that something can appear old- meaning that as scientists the only way we can estimate how old jeans are is by measuring how faded and worn they are. Yet a creator can make them that way right from the beginning, So despite our precise and correct measurement of how faded they are, they are still new! And the creator tells they are new (i.e., in the jean store- no deception).
5 Why would God go though all this trouble of making things in final form that look to us as being older? So we can can have free will. If everything was obviously created we would have doubts, and no free will!

I don't get it. Let's assume that God created everything, and He even confronted Adam. And he made things to look older. I can't see why He had to go through all these trouble, but if that is not deceiving someone, what else is the purpose of such an effort?

Denims are made to look old because it is a trend and people like to wear like that. The producer makes them as per the market requirement. But scientists never asked to be deceived. They never asked for all the trouble of calculating the age of the world, which apparently have led them to nowhere, but to a lie.

And what is this mentioning about 'free will'? Is free will there for us to get something wrong and believe it? In that case, this free will has given us nothing other than more trouble

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 06 Mar 2021, 03:30

cd20 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2021, 15:57 Despite all his research, the author is not the authority on absolute truth. We are humans, we are flawed, and we make mistakes. God is not a deceiver. He has not deceived us. Numbers 23:19 states,
"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" The same view is expressed in several other Scripture passages as well. I guess it depends on if you believe in God or not, as to whether you think He is a deceiver or not. If you know Him, you know He is not a deceiver.

For the notice, I do not believe in god as well as the creation. I believe that it has happened in the way how science explains.

I understand that this author has no authority regarding religious matters. Yet, apparently he believes in God, and that is why he has tried to prove the creation via an assumption. And that led to this question, whether God has deceived us or not. So, as I can understand, both of these cannot agree. Either God never created the universe, or He has deceived us

Post by **Sushan Ekanayake** » 06 Mar 2021, 03:34

Arimart99 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2021, 22:38
Sushan wrote: ↑02 Mar 2021, 00:24 The author explains, quoting some of the historical scholars, that actually the earth is not old as the scientists claim. He suggests that the God has created it in several thousand years (a 'day' in God's creation is taken as a 'thousand years'), but has made it to look like billions of years old, with the old stones, fossils, rings on the tree trunks, etc. The author compares this with making a newly made Denim trousers to look old by fading its colour and ripping it.

God created a theoretical timeline of all of existence, starting from the Big Bang and spanning billions of years. In this theoretical timeline, stars were born and died, dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and different human-like creatures came and went. Then, at a very specific point in this timeline, God took a snapshot of the entire universe, exactly as it would look at that moment, and that’s what He created. In other words, God brought a world billions of years old into existence fewer than 6,000 years ago.
Do you think this is true? If so, has the God deceived us? But why? On the other hand, has science got it all wrong despite hundreds of years of studies?
I pointed this out in another response in this Book of the Month Forum, but I'll point it out again: When the Bible says "that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8), the word "as" is used to mean "like." Peter is not telling us that to God one day IS a thousand years, but that one day is LIKE a thousand years. Peter's expression is not meant to give us a specific way of determining how God measures time, it is more of a figure of speech to let us know that God's actions might seem slow to humans, but fast to Him. Therefore, we can't say that God deceived us when we don't even know how to measure God's time.

Either way, knowing how long it took God to create the Earth has not effect on our Salvation, so why are Christians so interested in knowing? Why does it matter? Is it as a way to confirm He is real because we doubt Him? If God has no beginning and no end, and He knows what will happen before it happens, does the concept of time even apply to Him?

If these religious matters remained in the spiritual boundaries with concern to the salvation, this sort of books won't be published in the first place. We are discussing a book written by a devoted Christian Scientist.

This question occurred when this author gave a exact time for the time period what the bible mentions as 'as' this much time. And most importantly, this author has forwarded valid points to prove his argument.

So, if God has not deceived us, is it this author the one who has deceived us?