Free Will

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 23 Mar 2021, 07:42

zulfiyya wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 15:05 I believe that it's easy to say something exists but that we just can't see it because that thing is hidden. That explanation can be used to justify the existence of anything. Unicorns exist but we don't know about them because they are hidden. It is a very human thing to come up with metaphysical ideas such as God. The more we explore human psychology, the more evidence we have that metaphysical concepts are just the work of our human brains exploring abstract ideas and not necessarily how the world really is. That's why there are so many different religions and ideas for how the world is and not all of them have a god (Buddhism for example).

The idea that God exists but is just hidden so that we can have our own free will is just another metaphysical idea created by a human brain that likes to explore abstractions.

This is an interesting way to look at it. But, do you believe that free will exists? Do you believe that God exists? I do not agree with the idea that we can explain anything away and say it is hidden, like your example of unicorns. What proof do we have that they ever existed? I believe that is a mythical idea that someone created in a storybook. Dinosaurs on the other hand have fossils that have been found, proving their existence.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 23 Mar 2021, 07:47

Nonny2208 wrote: ↑23 Mar 2021, 00:11 I don't agree with the author's point of view on the six days of creation, but I think I somewhat agree with the opinion that he keeps himself hidden thereby not interfering to enable us have free will.

Yeah, he had some interesting ideas about the six days of creation. I also somewhat agree that there is the possibility that God is hidden so we can have free will. I do not know for sure and I do not think the Bible states that God is hidden so we can have free will. But, we do have choices and can find freedom in the choices we make.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 23 Mar 2021, 07:50

Wy_Bertram wrote: ↑23 Mar 2021, 02:33 I definitely think God does not reveal himself to allow for will. You only need to look at history to envision what would happen if any ruler was imposed on humanity. Our ability to decide for ourselves is our defining factor, and it would be against our nature to have everything set out before us. Though, I know a lot of people would be relieved to get a definitive answer.

I like the way you explained this. Especially, "You only need to look at history to envision what would happen if any ruler was imposed on humanity." You only need to look at the pandemic to see that one person trying to impose ideas on things leads people to rebel. We do not, in general, like people telling us what to do. That is also part of our human nature. And, while I agree that a lot of people would like to get a definitive answer, they still would not be happy if it was not the answer that they wanted. Thank you for commenting on my post.

markodim721 · Post by **markodim721** » 23 Mar 2021, 11:13

I agree and I think that every man is left with the opportunity to be whatever he wants, but it is up to him how he will use those opportunities.

Ayindelaw · Post by **Ayindelaw** » 23 Mar 2021, 11:57

I think the author has a point. It would be harder to have free will if God's existence was so obvious. However, I don't think we have true free will because we are like rats in a maze, we can go left or right, but we can't go outside of the maze. It's just one huge sandbox.

LeighBee · Post by **LeighBee** » 23 Mar 2021, 15:20

cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?

While I do agree that free will is the answer to a lot of the problems in our world and issues people have with faith, I don't agree that it is relevant to explaining why six days of creation does not make logical sense. It's awesome (in the filled-with-awe sense) that Genesis follows the scientific stages of Earth's formation at all, but at the same time, the Bible was written by men. Despite being inspired by God, taking every word literally is impossible because the humans who wrote it were not perfect.

I think that free will and faith have to go hand-in-hand, but I think reading the creation story in Genesis has more to do with the latter. I have faith that Moses, an imperfect man unable to fully understand God's infinite wisdom, did the best he could in putting his understanding into words. I suppose you could argue I make the choice not to worry about the discrepancies between science and faith, but ultimately I believe God loves us more than to intentionally cause doubt.

LinaMueller · Post by **LinaMueller** » 24 Mar 2021, 10:27

cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will."

I feel the same way. If the creator showed himself all the time, who would be crazy to be "bad" to spend eternity suffering? True morality can only occur if the individual is not sure of the reward in the eternal life. It seems self-evident to me.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 24 Mar 2021, 12:21

Ayindelaw wrote: ↑23 Mar 2021, 11:57 I think the author has a point. It would be harder to have free will if God's existence was so obvious. However, I don't think we have true free will because we are like rats in a maze, we can go left or right, but we can't go outside of the maze. It's just one huge sandbox.

So we have some free will, but not full control? Is that what you mean? And, what do you mean by "we are like rats in a maze, we can go left or right, but we can't go outside of the maze. It's just one huge sandbox." I do agree that it would be harder to have free will if we could physically see God, it's kind of like kids with their parents, they are not going to obviously misbehave when the parent is in the room, but different story when they are out of the room.

micoleon13 · Post by **micoleon13** » 24 Mar 2021, 12:44

It's an interesting opinion to have that God steps back in order for us to have free will. We take it so much for granted. Yes, if there was constant interaction or the feel of someone "overseeing" every action that we made, our choices would be based on how we thought they would be interpreted by Him or what the repercussions would be. This would affect each and every action and therefore a range of free will.

Alice Ngugi · Post by **Alice Ngugi** » 24 Mar 2021, 13:15

Someone once told me that if God was small enough for us the human kind to figure out, he wouldn't be big enough for us to worship. I also do believe that God's mystery in all he does allows us the wonder to want to know Him more. That way we can exercise the free will He gave us to intentionally pursue Him and try to unravel the mystery of who he is. I do believe that it's a logical premise

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 24 Mar 2021, 14:30

LeighBee wrote: ↑23 Mar 2021, 15:20
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 The authors explain that the reason everything looks like it happened naturally over a long period of time is "Because if it were obvious that the world had been created in six days, there would be no free will, no way to doubt the existence of the Creator. God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will." What do you think of this? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
While I do agree that free will is the answer to a lot of the problems in our world and issues people have with faith, I don't agree that it is relevant to explaining why six days of creation does not make logical sense. It's awesome (in the filled-with-awe sense) that Genesis follows the scientific stages of Earth's formation at all, but at the same time, the Bible was written by men. Despite being inspired by God, taking every word literally is impossible because the humans who wrote it were not perfect.

I think that free will and faith have to go hand-in-hand, but I think reading the creation story in Genesis has more to do with the latter. I have faith that Moses, an imperfect man unable to fully understand God's infinite wisdom, did the best he could in putting his understanding into words. I suppose you could argue I make the choice not to worry about the discrepancies between science and faith, but ultimately I believe God loves us more than to intentionally cause doubt.

I love this, you have explained it so well! I don't think that free will and the creation story are related either. I don't think we are to take everything in the Bible literally. I think some of it is literal, some is figurative, some is symbolic, and some will always be a mystery! I also agree that God is not the author of confusion or doubt! Thank you for your thoughtful response to this post.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 24 Mar 2021, 14:33

LinaMueller wrote: ↑24 Mar 2021, 10:27
cd20 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2021, 18:52 God is hidden so that we can function as human beings with free will."
I feel the same way. If the creator showed himself all the time, who would be crazy to be "bad" to spend eternity suffering? True morality can only occur if the individual is not sure of the reward in the eternal life. It seems self-evident to me.

While I agree it could be a possibility as to why God is hidden from us, I don't believe it is the only answer. I also agree that if He were with us all the time we wouldn't be "bad" all the time, but I think we would test Him just as much as we do now, just like we did our parents when we were kids. We would test the bounds to see how far we could go and how much we could get away with.

cd20 · Post by **cd20** » 24 Mar 2021, 14:33

markodim721 wrote: ↑23 Mar 2021, 11:13 I agree and I think that every man is left with the opportunity to be whatever he wants, but it is up to him how he will use those opportunities.

Do you think there are limits on free will? Someone else brought up that they thought there was. I agree that we do have choices and it is up to us as to what choice we will make.

markodim721 · Post by **markodim721** » 24 Mar 2021, 15:39

I think that there are limits to free will and that it is limited by our experience, culture, conscience...

Cwilde13 · Post by **Cwilde13** » 24 Mar 2021, 15:50

Even if the existence of God were proven fact, wouldn't humans still have free will? We were created in God's image and he gave us the intelligence to make our own choices, so that we didn't have to blindly follow the crowd. I don't believe that God is hiding his power for that reason, but rather to allow us to choose to follow is religion or not. He wants to see what humans will do on their own.